Comments on: The Invention of Tradition http://virtualstoa.net/2006/11/20/the-invention-of-tradition/ Chris Brooke's Weblog Thu, 20 Nov 2008 07:33:47 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.2 By: Roger http://virtualstoa.net/2006/11/20/the-invention-of-tradition/#comment-3492 Roger Sun, 26 Nov 2006 02:24:07 +0000 http://virtualstoa.net/2006/11/20/the-invention-of-tradition/#comment-3492 I have no doubt that T-R knew German when he was an intelligence officer as he would have been of limited use without it, and he obviously had at least some involvement in editing the Hitler's Table Talk translation that appeared under his name, but it doesn't surprise me that he'd apparently forgotten much of it by the eighties. I have no doubt that T-R knew German when he was an intelligence officer as he would have been of limited use without it, and he obviously had at least some involvement in editing the Hitler’s Table Talk translation that appeared under his name, but it doesn’t surprise me that he’d apparently forgotten much of it by the eighties.

]]> By: josh http://virtualstoa.net/2006/11/20/the-invention-of-tradition/#comment-3350 josh Fri, 24 Nov 2006 08:25:11 +0000 http://virtualstoa.net/2006/11/20/the-invention-of-tradition/#comment-3350 I was under the impression that T-R did know German -- at any rate, I recall that his published work, and some of his correspondence, suggests acquaintance with German texts. One wonders both whether he actually said tha 'life is too short...' quote, and if he meant it seriously (knowing something of T-R, the latter seems unlikely). And I think 'the errors you suggest' refers to your critique of the chapter on tartans, dearieme, and not the Hitler diaries affair. As for the latter: I realise that it's an easy (cheap) shot to take, but perhaps a single (albeit, pretty big) mistake made later in life isn't a sufficient basis for criticising any and all of T-R's work? I was under the impression that T-R did know German — at any rate, I recall that his published work, and some of his correspondence, suggests acquaintance with German texts. One wonders both whether he actually said tha ‘life is too short…’ quote, and if he meant it seriously (knowing something of T-R, the latter seems unlikely).
And I think ‘the errors you suggest’ refers to your critique of the chapter on tartans, dearieme, and not the Hitler diaries affair. As for the latter: I realise that it’s an easy (cheap) shot to take, but perhaps a single (albeit, pretty big) mistake made later in life isn’t a sufficient basis for criticising any and all of T-R’s work?

]]> By: dearieme http://virtualstoa.net/2006/11/20/the-invention-of-tradition/#comment-3223 dearieme Wed, 22 Nov 2006 19:16:07 +0000 http://virtualstoa.net/2006/11/20/the-invention-of-tradition/#comment-3223 ‘that life is too short to learn German’ : in an era when organic chemists routinely learned German, that is appalling self-indulgence. Keynes was guilty of it too. ‘that life is too short to learn German’ : in an era when organic chemists routinely learned German, that is appalling self-indulgence. Keynes was guilty of it too.

]]> By: dearieme http://virtualstoa.net/2006/11/20/the-invention-of-tradition/#comment-3222 dearieme Wed, 22 Nov 2006 19:13:09 +0000 http://virtualstoa.net/2006/11/20/the-invention-of-tradition/#comment-3222 "T-R doesn’t make the errors you suggest": perhaps not in his scholarly writing, but he certainly did in his journalism. Or would one blame the subeditor? “T-R doesn’t make the errors you suggest”: perhaps not in his scholarly writing, but he certainly did in his journalism. Or would one blame the subeditor?

]]> By: Roger http://virtualstoa.net/2006/11/20/the-invention-of-tradition/#comment-3203 Roger Wed, 22 Nov 2006 13:18:39 +0000 http://virtualstoa.net/2006/11/20/the-invention-of-tradition/#comment-3203 Reading the ‘that free circulation of pure wholesome air’ quote unpleasantly reminded me of a passage in Niall Ferguson's Pity of War which IIRC stated that kilted Scottish regiments in WW1 suffered far worse casualties than other British units from mustard gas - as the gas primarily works by attacking exposed sweaty areas of skin causing them to itch and blister horribly - so the more skin is exposed the more the target suffers. Not sure how far this explains the WW1 Highlanders ferocious reputation and tendency to shoot their German prisoners out of hand. Reading the ‘that free circulation of pure wholesome air’ quote unpleasantly reminded me of a passage in Niall Ferguson’s Pity of War which IIRC stated that kilted Scottish regiments in WW1 suffered far worse casualties than other British units from mustard gas - as the gas primarily works by attacking exposed sweaty areas of skin causing them to itch and blister horribly - so the more skin is exposed the more the target suffers.

Not sure how far this explains the WW1 Highlanders ferocious reputation and tendency to shoot their German prisoners out of hand.

]]> By: Roger http://virtualstoa.net/2006/11/20/the-invention-of-tradition/#comment-3200 Roger Wed, 22 Nov 2006 13:02:38 +0000 http://virtualstoa.net/2006/11/20/the-invention-of-tradition/#comment-3200 T-R's problem was that having established himself as a leading early modern British historian with his 1940 book on Archbishop Laud, his war service took him into British Military Intelligence and the ruins of Berlin where he was tasked with investigating the fate of Hitler. As the resulting book was a best seller on both sides of the Atlantic he was then wrongly identified by the media as a leading expert on all things Nazi, which both bolstered his bank balance and tickled his not inconsiderable vanity. Other than a not particularly distinguished translation of Bormann's transcripts of Hitler's table talk (where given his well-known opinion 'that life is too short to learn German' I suspect much of the real work was done by others) he then contributed nothing substantial to our knowledge of the Third Reich until the Hitler Diaries fiasco. In his own field though he was as rigorous as they come and the Highland Tradition essay is pretty solid and to my mind should be required reading in every Scottish school. T-R’s problem was that having established himself as a leading early modern British historian with his 1940 book on Archbishop Laud, his war service took him into British Military Intelligence and the ruins of Berlin where he was tasked with investigating the fate of Hitler.

As the resulting book was a best seller on both sides of the Atlantic he was then wrongly identified by the media as a leading expert on all things Nazi, which both bolstered his bank balance and tickled his not inconsiderable vanity.

Other than a not particularly distinguished translation of Bormann’s transcripts of Hitler’s table talk (where given his well-known opinion ‘that life is too short to learn German’ I suspect much of the real work was done by others) he then contributed nothing substantial to our knowledge of the Third Reich until the Hitler Diaries fiasco.

In his own field though he was as rigorous as they come and the Highland Tradition essay is pretty solid and to my mind should be required reading in every Scottish school.

]]> By: Chris Brooke http://virtualstoa.net/2006/11/20/the-invention-of-tradition/#comment-3128 Chris Brooke Tue, 21 Nov 2006 18:53:53 +0000 http://virtualstoa.net/2006/11/20/the-invention-of-tradition/#comment-3128 T-R doesn't make the errors you suggest. He notes that in the seventeenth century, when Highlanders fought in the civil wars, "Both officers and men wore the plaid, the former as an upper garment, the latter covering the whole body, belted round the waist so that the lower part, below the belt, formed a kind of skirt." (p.20) And he claims the Rawlinson invented the modern kilt to replace "the belted plaid", "which was achieved by separating the skirt from the plaid and converting it into a distinct garment, with pleats already sewn. (p.22) T-R doesn’t make the errors you suggest. He notes that in the seventeenth century, when Highlanders fought in the civil wars, “Both officers and men wore the plaid, the former as an upper garment, the latter covering the whole body, belted round the waist so that the lower part, below the belt, formed a kind of skirt.” (p.20)

And he claims the Rawlinson invented the modern kilt to replace “the belted plaid”, “which was achieved by separating the skirt from the plaid and converting it into a distinct garment, with pleats already sewn. (p.22)

]]> By: dearieme http://virtualstoa.net/2006/11/20/the-invention-of-tradition/#comment-3127 dearieme Tue, 21 Nov 2006 18:40:31 +0000 http://virtualstoa.net/2006/11/20/the-invention-of-tradition/#comment-3127 Trevor-Roper was prone to fall for fakes, wasn't he? Of course the tartan business is a very over-egged pudding, but 17th century descriptions and paintings leave no doubt that tartan plaidery predates Rawlinson massively. Anyway, how can the Quaker cove adapt a dress style if that style doesn't already exist? As my wife said as she listened to Trevor-Roper's press conference about the Hitler Diaries "Bugger me, the old fraud doesn't even understand colloquial German." Trevor-Roper was prone to fall for fakes, wasn’t he? Of course the tartan business is a very over-egged pudding, but 17th century descriptions and paintings leave no doubt that tartan plaidery predates Rawlinson massively. Anyway, how can the Quaker cove adapt a dress style if that style doesn’t already exist? As my wife said as she listened to Trevor-Roper’s press conference about the Hitler Diaries “Bugger me, the old fraud doesn’t even understand colloquial German.”

]]> By: scwr http://virtualstoa.net/2006/11/20/the-invention-of-tradition/#comment-3055 scwr Mon, 20 Nov 2006 18:23:29 +0000 http://virtualstoa.net/2006/11/20/the-invention-of-tradition/#comment-3055 Much of the nonsense about 'clan tartans' is just that--nonsense. The kilt, in one form or another, however, does seem to have ancient origins. Above all it is, in the words of one twentieth century colonel of a highland regiment, 'an unrivalled garment for diarrhoea or fornication.' Much of the nonsense about ‘clan tartans’ is just that–nonsense. The kilt, in one form or another, however, does seem to have ancient origins. Above all it is, in the words of one twentieth century colonel of a highland regiment, ‘an unrivalled garment for diarrhoea or fornication.’

]]> By: Patchen http://virtualstoa.net/2006/11/20/the-invention-of-tradition/#comment-3050 Patchen Mon, 20 Nov 2006 17:32:49 +0000 http://virtualstoa.net/2006/11/20/the-invention-of-tradition/#comment-3050 Alright, make that "unbound by recognition." Alright, make that “unbound by recognition.”

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